e09 John Denham

An interview with former SUSU President and Secretary of State for Universities, John Denham MP.

What was the hardest issue you faced as Union President?
I think the most difficult issue faced by students at that time was a very sharp change in the fees, which shows that nothing ever really changes. In those days it was a threat to those people who were already on the course, such as those doing medical degrees and we were able to make the University create what was in national terms, quite a generous bursary scheme. This helped to support those students who were affected and make sure they could graduate; it also helped quite a lot of medical students and overseas students.

Do you have any particular advice for the current lot of Freshers?
I got a huge amount out of my university experience. Though I long gave up the dream of being a professional scientist, I certainly gained a huge amount from doing a science degree. Developing scientific concepts and methods and probability and risk have all been useful to me in later life, so the academic side was important but I also gained a lot from the broader university experience. I played a lot of sport; the Students’ Union gave me a chance to test out whatever communication skills I’ve got. So the simple advice would be to make the most of it; there will be no other time in your life where you’ll get the chance to stretch yourself in so many directions at once.

What measures are the government taking to maintain the value of a degree from a British University?
Well I think that the answer is first and foremost the investment that we’ve made in higher education; a 25% real increase after a decade in which universities were expanded but money wasn’t, so quality of investment in each student was reduced. We’ve had an equally big increase in research which has helped to re-establish British universities and in particular, British science as a world leader, when a few years ago that was at risk. This means that British higher education has an enormously high value all around the world. A student that graduates from a British university will come out with a degree that is recognised not only by employers here but by employers right around the world. The starting point for that is investment.

The second thing is we try to get the relationship between government and the universities right, so although we have very high expectations of universities, we value their autonomy. It’s down to you to decide how to produce the university that you want to be and I think that gives us a much stronger university system than in countries where there’s greater public control on how each institution operates.

There has been a major push recently on vocational training and job related skills. How effective has this been and why is this is so vital?
It’s vital because we need to be in the Premier League for skills at every level and we’re not at the moment. That’s every level from basic numeracy and literacy to Postgraduate research

We need to raise skill levels in the rest of the economy as well. To help with this we are running a big campaign and are working very closely with employers, unions and other organisations to increase the value of vocational qualifications. I would say we’ve made a good start but we haven’t achieved the status we would like for vocational qualifications.

I suppose for a small example each summer, quite rightly we have a big celebration of each student who has got good GCSE’s, good A Levels; there are degree ceremonies at universities and these are widely reported, but there is no equivalent for somebody who successfully completes an apprenticeship or vocational qualification. I think we will be getting closer to where we need to be, which is where our society celebrates success whichever particular route is right for each individual student. We’re not there yet which is where I want to get to.

When Alan Johnson visited the Union he spoke favourably about two year degrees. Could this be carried over into other universities as part of an education reform?
I think we will see a greater diversity in the way in which universities go about structuring their courses in the future. From the year after next the number of teenagers in the population will decline rather sharply. At the same time, to reach those international standards of higher education we’ve got to bring a lot more school leavers into higher education to do degrees. That is going to push most universities to offer a wider range of courses, particularly for older students, people who may be taking time out for work or people who may be under funded by their employers.

It could well be that concentrating the work into a two-year degree or a longer part-time degree is much easier to achieve than a traditional undergraduate degree with a longer summer vacation. So I think you could see more of that sort of degree but would be very surprised if changes were made in the foreseeable future.

The UCU recently argued that there has been a shift towards market in higher education, which is leading towards a consumer culture at universities?
I don’t think there has been a real shift towards a market although I do think that universities are much more aware of the need to positively attract their students. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that; it is a good thing. It makes it more likely that they are going to base the education on what the student actually wants rather than what a university might think to provide. But it does mean that there is a sharper expectation from students about what they should get, and that is undoubtedly intensified since the introduction of variable fees. When we introduced variable fees, we said that it makes sense to ask you to contribute as you will be a personal beneficiary. Once we ask people to contribute they are going to ask am I getting the best education possible?

There is nothing wrong with that development as long as we manage it properly. However, I don’t think there is any harm in universities understanding that students now have a sharper expectation of what they intend to get from their degree and what level of support they are entitled to.

There was another increase in high level results this year. Is there a danger that there will be too many A Level students with high qualifications competing for too few university places?
It’s good news that students are achieving higher results these days, but it does throw up issues for universities who then have to look for other indicators for how well a student is likely to do. Although A levels results are still the most important factor, universities have been encouraged for many years now to look around and see what else students have done. It’s good news that people are doing so well, although I recognise it can be problematic for universities.

I think that universities will be helped by the new A star grade that will come in with A levels in the future and the possibility of doing an extended project. It will enable the most able students to demonstrate the best of their abilities.

Do you think that David Cameron’s call for new national service through volunteering is a credible idea? Can it actually work?
There is already great investment in volunteering opportunities for young people, so to that extent it isn’t a new idea at all. What Cameron has said is that he wants everybody to do it, even though it won’t be compulsory. He has not explained in any way though, how he expects to break through to groups of young people who are not volunteering at the moment. If what you’re trying to tackle is the problems that crop up at 14, 15 and16, then it’s going to be the interventions that schools, social services and volunteering agencies make with families when the children are seven and eight that will make the difference. It’s quite hard to take somebody whose an established gang member and turn their life round with volunteering opportunities; it doesn’t mean they can’t grow out of it, and there will always be some people who’ll take them up but I think the crucial intervention comes at a much earlier age.

Plans were recently announced to scrap funding for those studying second degrees at the same level. Could you explain this?
Sometimes you have to make difficult choices in government and this was one of them. You have a choice between 40,000 extra people going to university for the first time or people coming back to do another degree. Our feeling was that the priority should be with the people who haven’t had the opportunity to have higher education. It’s going to be fazed in so I don’t think it will wreck somebody’s immediate plans but if you ask where the priorities lie with tax payers money it’s with increasing opportunities for people who haven’t had them before. It’s not so much a cut as a transfer of resources.

Finally, with these reforms and pushes, should there be an election to gain a new mandate?
Fortunately, these are things for the Prime Minister to decide. What I think is quite interesting is that before Gordon became Prime Minister, the Conservatives ran a campaign saying it was outrageous that he should even dream of not calling an election. Then they saw the opinion polls and went all quiet about it, which suggests there was no high principle in the Tory position on this. It’s on him to decide but people like Gordon and I are just getting on with the job at the moment.

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